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What the military oath of enlistment says about legal and illegal orders
A war of words between President Donald Trump and Democratic military and national security veterans on Capitol Hill has opened up a discussion about legal and illegal orders.
But the law governing the military clearly prohibits those in the service from following orders that are unlawful.
The issue came up after Democratic Sen. Elissa Slotkin, who served in the Central Intelligence Agency, in which she and five other Democratic members of Congress urged military members to not follow "illegal orders," telling them "Don't give up the ship."
"The threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders," they say in the video. "No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/military-oath-enlistment-says-legal-233710195.html
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UTUSN
(76,410 posts)
MustLoveBeagles
(13,922 posts)
crud
(1,156 posts)"will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
ForgedCrank
(2,984 posts)to be the one to say it.
Releasing that video was ill advised all around. Dancing around the technicalities doesn't change the fact that this generates harsh feelings and more division.
In the enlisted ranks, this has been received as a serious insult to their intelligence and loyalty, and is being viewed as political meddling in the world that they try very hard to keep out of that mess.
Those guys know the rules already, and they are more than a little steamed that some are appealing to them to participate. This is making us all look really bad in the overall scope of things.
disclaimer: nowhere in my comment did I use the word "all". I also said nothing about the video being technically incorrect. I also said nothing about me personally disagreeing with the accuracy of the basic message. In fact, I said nothing that isn't specifically typed out above.
liberalgunwilltravel
(1,008 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 22, 2025, 06:53 AM - Edit history (2)
I have to respectfully disagree. This was the right message at the right time to the right people. It's time for everyone to stand up to this rogue regime. Reminding people of the rules, when their incompetent "superiors" are lying to them, doesn't make "us" look bad. It makes us look like we want to live in a nation of laws, not men.
ForgedCrank
(2,984 posts)respect that especially since you achieved what most never do and that is remain civil with me even though we disagree, at least sort-of.
Like I mentioned, I don't disagree with any of the content of the video or it's message. I do disagree with them releasing it though, it's an appeal to people who see them as meddling politicians, regardless that they once served. Enlisted want no part of outsiders agitating their ecosystem, they take offense to being used like this. You already know since you were there before. Enlisted can sit in the lounge and argue about it all night amongst themselves, but opinions from politicians are quite unwelcome. In other words, I can fight my brother all day, but no one else better even think about laying a finger on him. They have enough people telling them what to do, especially on the critically taboo subject of considering disobeying a direct order from a superior. That is the road leading to hell and they need no reminders of that.
James48
(5,056 posts)That video was very good and very needed right now.
I’m retired military- half my career as an NCO, half as an officer. That was just common knowledge, and refreshing to hear that from these veterans in Congress.
The speech/viddo gives solid evidence that we’re not just having a bad nightmare- we have to hold together.
I don’t think the average American understands what a bad place we really are in as a nation. Our democracy is much more fragile than anyone understands.
I’m glad Sen. Slotkin is my Senator right now. I support this 109%.
maxrandb
(17,039 posts)In my 30 years of service in the Navy, I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw politics being discussed. I spent half of my time enlisted, and half as a Naval Officer.
My experience was that about 1/4 of my Shipmates were conservative, 1/4 were liberal, and 50% couldn't give a flying fuck, they just prayed whoever was in charge didn't "cock it up".
I imagine that a great deal of the rank and file, saw this as; "finally, someone has come out and reiterated that our allegiance is to our founding document, and not a man!"
I am no longer active duty, but I sure as hell know how I would feel if I was responsible for blowing up rowboats that we could easily interdict without firing a shot, or accidentally invading a beach in Mexico.
One thing I know most Sailors have, in abundance, is Honor, Courage and Commitment. I would bet a great deal are thankful, not because of the reminder of their oath, but for the reminder being sent to their XOs, COs, TYCOMs and civilian leadership.
dsvajda
(27 posts)I was the CO of a reserve installation in the Clinton years. My policy was no political talk in front of the troops. Their oath is pretty specific about obeying the orders of the President and Officers in their chain of command. I relieved the CO of one reserve unit because he couldn't quit his Clinton bashing in front of his troops. Totally agree with your last paragraph.
Grins
(9,127 posts)That is very SPECIFIC about disparaging a president - and a whole bunch of others.
I reread it during Trump’s first national nightmare and found out - it applied to me!! Still!!! And I served when Nixon was president!!!
ForgedCrank
(2,984 posts)my primary point. It's not supposed to be political there and most of them don't like this crap. Read my comment again.
And no, smarty guy, I didn't conduct a poll, I'm relaying what I've been told today already by 2 people still enlisted. In their words, most people on the base are pissed off about the meddling and trying to drag them into this bullshit. They want no part of this soap opera bullshit.
maxrandb
(17,039 posts)Is kinda' like a Penthouse Forum letter.
"I swear this had never happened to me before, but one night in college, my girlfriend and her roommate came over to study..."
ForgedCrank
(2,984 posts)information. Ignore it or consider it. I really don't give a damn.
But, discounting an option because it's not what you want to hear seems a little, well, like short sighted tunnel vision.
But that's ok, I guess I'm stupid so let's keep doing what we've been doing, you know, this tabloid crap. It's worked out SO well for us that I surely must be wrong about everything.
MissouriDem47
(337 posts)We are on the precipice of losing Democracy with TACO in the White House and Republicans in Congress refusing to doing their jobs of providing "checks and balances". Nothing they said in the video was wrong. As a former enlisted member of the military if what they said "hurt their feelings" then they need a new line of work.
Why you think you know what the enlisted members are feeling and their reaction? The East Wing of the White is currently laying in ruins and is symbolic what TACO is doing to the US Constitution and to the country. While TACO, according to his supreme court has presidential immunity, those that follow and commit unlawful acts could face consequences.
ForgedCrank
(2,984 posts)when we lose our Democracy. I'll take a video of me eating the crow and post it.
The hyperbole and screaming about wolves at every corner is what is turning off so many people.
When is the last time you saw someone promoting Democratic party policy rather than playing these stupid PR and media games regarding Trump?
It's a losing formula, and it's what got us where we are this very moment.
maxrandb
(17,039 posts)when MAGAt got their a$$ handed to them at the ballot box.
NotHardly
(2,336 posts)maxrandb
(17,039 posts)imagine how they feel about "Field Daying" the ship, because dry-drunk, O4 weekend warrior Kegsbreath wants to come talk to them about push-ups, 8 count bodybuilders and how drunk he was on liberty in Subic Bay.
I guarantee you that this isn't on the radar of any Sailor, unless they have a "guilty conscience".
It's kinda' funny. The Reich-wingers will prostrate themselves about our "glorious, manly, heroic troops", but they actually think they're so fucking fragile that the truth will break them.
Iggo
(49,462 posts)Is it that legal is still legal and illegal is still illegal?
Well, okay then.
evilhime
(371 posts)AverageOldGuy
(3,190 posts)Here is their discussion of illegal orders. Note some of their examples.
https://www.ucmjlaw.com/disobey-a-superior-officer/
patphil
(8,533 posts)You have to realize that the audience for this message wasn't just the military, it was for everyone of us in the United States. It was an affirmation of what we who served already knew, but maybe needed to be reminded of, and for those of us who didn't serve and may not have known.
Trump is asking our military to abandon their oath and serve him instead of the nation; to follow the rule of Trump instead of the rule of law; to ignore the Constitution and take their direction from a man who has already rejected the Constitution as being the law of the land.
And Trump's response was an affirmation that the message was properly given at the time it needed to be heard.
So, he's ready kill anyone who gets in his way? He's supposed to serve the people, but all he does is serve himself.
Without honorable people in our military, we would be subject to a cruel, heartless dictator who would indeed kill his enemies.
WarGamer
(18,148 posts)Thus you won't have any foot soldiers refusing an order...
They don't have time to consult a JAG so they rely on their commanders.
And what is an illegal order?
Executing POW? yup... most of the time
Firing on civilians?
Not always...
Just look at the prosecution of the military from war zones...
There have been MANY horrific things done by US soldiers that were quite illegal that were never prosecuted.
Warpy
(114,257 posts)that have been placed on their porcine Jebus.
Even I know enough of the UCMJ to know about that provision. The problem is that the line between legal and illegal is not always clearly defined to the rank and file, which is why Lt. Calley got away with ordering the killing about half the inhabitants of My Lai iun Vietnam before somebody was able to stop it. It was stopped and Calley went to prison and ever single service member, from lowest grunt to top general, is sworn to uphold it.
It's not perfect but it is there, something the Gravy Seals who slavishly follow Fat Jebus would know if they weren't such ignorant cowards.
That last word is important. Congresspeople who served and pointed out this part of the Code don't have that much to fear. In addition to the cowardice is a heavy helping of laziness
kiri
(965 posts)Everyone knows that the real issue is: How do you know an order is illegal?
Illegal orders do not come with a big yellow sign. Is it illegal because you don't approve of it? Because your moral sense is offended? When a junior officer disagrees with a senior officer? Does it take a vote of the platoon?
This is a great dilemma that everyone is avoiding.
The issue arose similarly as to what constitutes/validates "civil disobedience".
upacreek
(14 posts)No one has their back (the enlisted) stop the BS. It will take a concentrated effort by the brass to do any bit of good. Oh, I forgot, 47 fired/forced retirement of highly qualified officers. If I remember right, the officer of the command that includes Venezuela area was one of the most qualified people I've ever read about. I forgot the reason for his dismissal. He was too damned dedicated, too damned qualified, let's get to the heart of the matter, he was also Black. If all the officers with any backbone are dismissed/forced to leave, no one has the enlistee's
back they are hanging by a thread, possibly a rope.
The Blue Flower
(6,268 posts)That tells you all you need to know about the result of putting a multiple convicted criminal in office. Laws and rules are like poison to him. Disorder, chaos, illegality are his watchwords--the opposite of what the military is about.
Glass City
(7 posts)I think it should be required by any of our armed services, before or after boot camp, to instruct recruits on the US Constitution. Wouldn't it be a good idea to know what it is they're actually pledging their very lives to defend?
The Bush Administration already shit on the Constitution by using the AUMF as an end-around to invade and occupy Iraq & Afghanistan without a formal Declaration of War from Congress. Maybe if our troops had already known that they could have refused to deploy, and thousands of young soldiers would still be alive today.
It's because of this that I would never encourage young people to serve in the military unless we get a better class of politicians who have a sense of ethics, dignity, and integrity. The only exception I would make to that is if a person sees their current life trajectory will end up with them either in jail or dead, and needs a new direction.