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MineralMan

(150,393 posts)
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:20 AM Wednesday

Why Not Following Illegal Orders Is Important

Many people here and elsewhere do not remember the Vietnam War My Lai massacre and its aftermath. Everyone should know about it, though. It is the perfect example of a situation where orders which were blatantly illegal were followed without resistance. In the process war crimes were committed by United States personnel.

This is why the UCMJ is clear about refusing to carry out unlawful orders. Everyone is trained in that, and has been for a very long time. We tend to forget that sometimes, though.

I'm not going to go through that incident in any detail, but if you don't know anything about it, you should read the Wikipedia account at the link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

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Why Not Following Illegal Orders Is Important (Original Post) MineralMan Wednesday OP
I remember the My Lai massacre, it horrified me to think that US soldiers could commit MarineCombatEngineer Wednesday #1
Many of us do remember, but we're starting to age out. It's important not to forget. MineralMan Wednesday #3
I remember it well PatSeg Wednesday #10
Ha! Good names. Joinfortmill Wednesday #13
Great actors, Fox, Penn, Harvey, etc. MarineCombatEngineer Wednesday #14
After Calley's 1971 sentence to life imprisonment, Nixon ordered the Army to transfer him from the military stockade sop Wednesday #2
Yes. That was yet another misjudgment by a Republican President. MineralMan Wednesday #4
I remember when the Hersh story came out - it was horrifying. Ocelot II Wednesday #5
Yes, exactly! There is a measure of contempt for locals that creeps in MineralMan Wednesday #9
And this mis-administration is working on contempt for others within this country. erronis Wednesday #19
All trump has to do is keep his mouth shut Turbineguy Wednesday #6
We studied and dissected that incident for a couple long days ... MiHale Wednesday #7
Another good link...more in depth. MiHale Wednesday #8
The S**t usually hits the fan with the order to fire on your own countrymen. Mustellus Wednesday #11
I remember My Lai, but my first thought was Kent State. MLWR Wednesday #15
Excellent point Joinfortmill Wednesday #12
Illegal orders Cirsium Wednesday #16
"On November 12, 1969, Seymour Hersh broke the My Lai massacre story" -- Great DU post erronis Wednesday #17
I agree, but it was a provocation. gulliver Wednesday #18
I don't know as much about this as I should. ShazzieB Wednesday #20

MarineCombatEngineer

(17,262 posts)
1. I remember the My Lai massacre, it horrified me to think that US soldiers could commit
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:34 AM
Wednesday

such an atrocity.
Most US military in Vietnam at the time, including me, served honorably and didn't commit those types of crime, there were incidents, like the incident in 1966 when a US Army recon mission kidnapped a young Vietnamese girl from a village, raped and murdered her as depicted in the movie, Casualties of War.

Unfortunately, these crimes cast a bad light on all of us that served, whether in Vietnam or state side.

If you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it, it's powerful and tragic.



Thank you for this thread, it needs to be stressed given what Pedonald and his pet monkey, Kegsbreath are doing to our military.

MineralMan

(150,393 posts)
3. Many of us do remember, but we're starting to age out. It's important not to forget.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:39 AM
Wednesday

There are horrible incidents in almost any war. No question about it. But, our military leadership is supposed to prevent such incidents, and the UCMJ rule about unlawful orders is one of the tools available to everyone who serves. It is exceedingly difficult to buck against such illegal orders, and risky, too, but it's essential if we are going to eliminate incidents like My Lai.

PatSeg

(51,620 posts)
10. I remember it well
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 12:16 PM
Wednesday

I read about it in the Chicago Sun Times as I rode the bus to work. I was pregnant at the time and the story made me physically ill.

MarineCombatEngineer

(17,262 posts)
14. Great actors, Fox, Penn, Harvey, etc.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 12:53 PM
Wednesday

the ending of the movie actually brought tears to my eyes when Fox returned the scarf to the girl.

sop

(17,070 posts)
2. After Calley's 1971 sentence to life imprisonment, Nixon ordered the Army to transfer him from the military stockade
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:35 AM
Wednesday

to house arrest at his apartment before being released on parole in November 1974. Calley was the only one of the 26 individuals charged to be convicted. Shameful.






MineralMan

(150,393 posts)
4. Yes. That was yet another misjudgment by a Republican President.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:40 AM
Wednesday

I remember when that happens and that I cursed at that decision.

Ocelot II

(128,522 posts)
5. I remember when the Hersh story came out - it was horrifying.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:42 AM
Wednesday

Makes you wonder what gets into people - some kind of mob psychosis, I guess. But part of the shame of that whole atrocity was that only Calley was ever convicted; Medina was acquitted, and he shouldn't have been. And there was a whole lot of covering-up that was never prosecuted. IIRC, Colin Powell was allegedly part of the coverup.

MineralMan

(150,393 posts)
9. Yes, exactly! There is a measure of contempt for locals that creeps in
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 11:01 AM
Wednesday

whenever the military ends up stationed outside of the United States, I think. Particularly in Asian countries.

In the Philippines, Korea, and Vietnam, all at different times, the extremely ugly word, "Gook" was used widely as a general name for the people who lived in those regions. Even in Turkiye, when I was stationed there, many US Military people called the Turkish people "Kruts." It was something that made me angry every time I heard the word used.

I understand that it's a way of dehumanizing the "others," despite ourselves actually being the others in those countries. Why? I don't know, but it always seemed to me to be a way of excusing poor treatment of those who actually inhabited countries where we were stationed. And, while leadership spoke out against such language, it was a half-hearted objection.

It's a part of human nature that I despise. It happens everywhere, and helps to feed racism and other prejudices. I don't know how we can stop doing that, but we really should work harder at it.

erronis

(22,183 posts)
19. And this mis-administration is working on contempt for others within this country.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 01:24 PM
Wednesday

Constantly labeling people with derogatory names. Using National Guard from red states to occupy blue states - I'm sure with some strong indoctrination exercises before.

State vs. state.
Male vs. female.
Race vs. race.
Young vs. old.
Family against family.

Sounds like a good recipe for a nice civil war!

Turbineguy

(39,698 posts)
6. All trump has to do is keep his mouth shut
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:48 AM
Wednesday

Of course, he can't do that. It would make people think he was well. Now it looks like he gives illegal orders.

MiHale

(12,427 posts)
7. We studied and dissected that incident for a couple long days ...
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 10:53 AM
Wednesday

In the Army OCS classes back in the 70’s. The Army wanted absolutely no repeats.

Mustellus

(401 posts)
11. The S**t usually hits the fan with the order to fire on your own countrymen.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 12:42 PM
Wednesday

When Gorbachov was kidnapped and the hard liners sent Russian troops into Moscow itself, the babushkas came out and the mothers holding nursing babies.. and said 'Don't shoot us'. Yeltsin climbed on a tank with a megaphone, and the revolt collapsed.

When Marcos was desperate, two million Philipinos in the streets of Manila, including the Cardinal of the city, Marcos ordered his head general to go out and clear the streets. Instead, the general led his troops out to join the demonstrators. Marcos got on the next plane out of the Phillipines, and Imelda lost her shoe collection.

Kent State is another case. The biggest military scandal of the 70's was the Reserves never deployed. Instead they were staffed with sons of the rich and powerful, and sports figures. (Whispers GWB). No one knows how the firing started, but they didn't hit any of the demonstrators. All the deaths were at 200 yards and further: e.g. not aimed shots.

Heck, if the Russian military couldn't stomach it, I have hopes our own military understands things better than Fox and the GOP

Cirsium

(3,235 posts)
16. Illegal orders
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 01:18 PM
Wednesday

The My Lai massacre was it the only case of illegal orders in the Viet Nam war, far from it. Illegal orders and the commission of war crimes were routine throughout the conflict. I agree that people should know about it, but they should know the full picture. Focusing on My Lai give people the impression that the massacre was the extent of the crimes committed, which is far from true.

We know this from the Army's own records, the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group, impaneled in the Army Chief of Staff’s office. Their reports document reports of massacres, murders, rape, torture, assault, and mutilation. The purpose of the working group was not to prevent atrocities, not to punish wrong doers, but rather to get ahead of any stories that might lead to bad publicity and to bury the stories as much as possible.

We have 30,000 books in print on the Vietnam War, and most of them deal with the American experience. They focus on American soldiers, on strategy, tactics, generals, or diplomacy out of Washington and the war managers there. But I didn’t see any that really attempted to tell the complete story of what I came to see as the signature aspect of the conflict, which was Vietnamese civilian suffering. Millions of Vietnamese were killed, wounded, or made refugees by deliberate US policies, like the almost unrestrained bombing and artillery shelling across wide swaths of the countryside. That is, deliberate policies dictated at the highest levels of the US military. But any discussion of Vietnamese civilian suffering is condensed down to a couple pages or paragraphs on the massacre at My Lai.

...

What I was told in the countryside was beyond my ability to grasp, something that I could have never have gotten from the records. And I would talk to Vietnamese who would tell me about what it was like just to try and eke out an existence in the war zone. About having their home burned down five, six seven times. And then finally giving up rebuilding and starting to live a semi-subterranean life in their bomb shelter. About how they figured out ways to get out of that shelter, to get water or food or relieve themselves. And how their entire lives were just predicated on figuring out a way not to get killed. They would talk about artillery called down on a hamlet, and they would run into the bomb shelter. And stay there. And then this whole calculus would begin where they would try and figure out exactly when the right time to leave that shelter was. You had to wait until the artillery shelling stopped, but you couldn’t leave too soon or you were apt to be cut down by a helicopter gunship that was flying overhead. You had to make sure you weren’t caught in a crossfire between departing guerrillas and the onrushing Americans. But you couldn’t stay down there too long because the Americans were coming, and they would start rolling grenades into the bomb shelters because they saw them as possible enemy bunkers, fighting positions. There all of these decisions to be made, and it wasn’t just your life that depended on making it, but maybe your entire family. The whole family could get wiped out if you left a second too early or a second too late.

...

There was also an active trade in body parts in Vietnam. Ears were worn on necklaces, one ear or maybe even a whole chain of ears. Some guys wore these to show their combat prowess. Others would collect these ears and sell them to people who wanted to project this image. In one unit they were cutting off the heads of enemies, and anyone who presented it to the commander got an extra beer ration. In one case, a sergeant had cut off a head and he boiled the flesh of it, and then traded the skull for a radio.

They were forced into catering to the US war machine one way or another, and one of the prime ways was prostitution. A lot of girls who were sent to it, their villages had been destroyed and they were forced into the cities. And this was a way to provide for their families. The Americans had lots of money to spend and these were young guys, 18, 19, 20 years old. So it was this flourishing sex trade and then out in the countryside there was what seems to be a tremendous amount of rape and sexual assault. What I found was extremely disturbing. I recount a few cases where the sexual violence is really shocking. A lot of times I found myself, I felt I didn’t have the language to describe exactly what I found in the cases, because rape or even gang rape didn’t seem to convey the level of sexual sadism. These are extremely violent gang rapes, or raping women with inanimate objects like bottles or even rifles.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/vietnam-and-the-mere-gook-rule/

erronis

(22,183 posts)
17. "On November 12, 1969, Seymour Hersh broke the My Lai massacre story" -- Great DU post
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 01:19 PM
Wednesday
https://www.democraticunderground.com/11637908 - mahatmakanejeeves

My Lai Massacre

Mỹ Lai Massacre
Thảm sát Mỹ Lai


Photo taken by US Army photographer Ronald L. Haeberle on 16 March 1968, in the aftermath of the Mỹ Lai Massacre showing mostly women and children dead on a road

. . .


Much, much more.

gulliver

(13,677 posts)
18. I agree, but it was a provocation.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 01:20 PM
Wednesday

In context, the ad telling "the troops" (and the whole world, including Trump) that they don't have to follow "illegal orders" is a backhanded accusation. I assume everyone realizes that. It strongly implies that Trump has or is likely to issue illegal orders.

Pro: Standing up to Trump. Drawing a line in the sand.
Con: He'll make hay out of it in predictable ways as he is now.

Giving this "reminder" to the troops about illegal orders is also, intentionally or not, a minor condescending lecture and threat to the troops. "You may not know this, but you don't have to follow illegal orders." (Translation: "You might be fairly ignorant of your basic duty, so I feel it is necessary to remind you. Also, we're watching you in case you do something we consider illegal. You'll have no protection from prosecution." )

Pro: Some few military folks may not be fully aware of their responsibilities, and this reminds them. Not a very big pro.
Con: Could alienate military votes and support

To me, it's not proving to be very effective so far. Trump et al have, as usual, gone off the rails, but they've gotten folks used to that. It gets them eyeballs for their messages (earned media). They have the "bully" pulpit. I'm a big fan of Kelly and Slotkin, so I hope it plays out well.

ShazzieB

(22,027 posts)
20. I don't know as much about this as I should.
Wed Nov 26, 2025, 01:47 PM
Wednesday

I definitely remember hearing about it at the time. A LOT. When the whole thing came out, the media coverage was such that being unaware of it would have been well nigh impossible. Unfortunately, it occurred during a time in my life when I was not following the news closely enough to fully understand what had happened, a fact I am not proud of. (I was 18 when the massacre occurred in 1968, 19 when the ensuing cover-up was revealed, and 21 when Calley was convicted and sentenced; preoccupied with pursuing an education and just generally trying to figure out to be an adult human, two tasks with which my parents were of minimal assistance.) I knew just enough to be appropriately horrified and appalled but not much more.

I also remember the famous ghastly photo of bodies strewn along a road posted by erronis in reply #17, above) and recall seeing it used on antiwar posters with the caption of "...and babies?" "And babies." That image was so viscerally horrifying that it seared itself into the memories of millions, including my own.

The more I think about it, the more i remember...but the memories are a confusing jumble. Having my memory jogged by this post makes me realize that I need to go back, take another look, and fill in the gaps.

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